This interview was a deep conversation from a skeptics perspective and especially from the spiritual NDE studies done over the years. The topic is Anomalous Trauma, alien abductions, milabs, relationship manipulations, the alien love bite, and especially how I perceive the spiritual and psychological implications of such experiences. Most of this experience comes from a therapist-helpers’ perspective, but also from an overview of 30 years observation of this kind of trauma and how much it repeats itself even today with respect to the narratives people choose to believe in the face of a higher intelligence interfering with us on many levels and with questionable motives, even spiritually.
In many respects this interview was challenging for me because I realize how important it is for most people to have a more scientific “peer reviewed” study with valid hypothesis and statistics using the human 5 senses only, which puts many who rely only on these senses at risk for not being able to perceive and respond appropriately to a highly intelligent predatory species with questionable motives.
I’ve seen how many adopt the narrative in the usual human scientist arguments, a kind of belief that will see the “humans as monsters”, “we are the problem” , repetitive wars, what we create, is all our negative karma etc. And not perceiving the predators working through certain human elite groups who are not really human per se, but having given over their wills to false gods and/or predatory, spiritually deceptive, vampiric beings who turn humans upon and against one another, and then gaslight us into thinking “its all our fault”, and that they don’t exist; where’s the proof? I tried to bring up this observation but not sure if it got across.
This interview is in transcript form for readers. Much gratitude to Alex for doing a fine job and making this interview possible for a wider audience who may not have heard of alien/ET issues related to anomalous trauma in the ways I have engaged in for about 30 years now.
[00:00:00] Alex Tsakiris: , On this episode of Skeptiko.
A show about what happens when you really ask for answers.
[00:00:08] Clip: do something. Come on, prove it. Show me something real. I need it now. Not later now.
At a show about how you sometimes get those answers in places you wouldn’t normally expect.
[00:00:30] Eve Lorgen: cuz there’s, there’s people now who are claiming that it’s a, it’s a false thing and don’t go in the white light and you’re gonna get trapped
[00:00:36] Alex Tsakiris: The interesting thing to me is that I have no doubt that the basic premise of what you’re saying is true is that there is some non-human intelligence with advanced technology that can implement means of deception in a way that directly interferes with or has the appearance of interfering with what people would understand to be a near-death experience or a reincarnation experience.
[00:01:02] Alex Tsakiris: They’re faking it. I, I think they’re faking it. That is my ultimate conclusion. But that is an important shift that no one in the n d E community is really looking at.
[00:01:12] Eve Lorgen: Wow. I don’t know. All I know is what I experienced is a realization that. It went beyond my, uh, normal consciousness of what’s in the personality of this identity or any other lifetime.
[00:01:24] Eve Lorgen: It’s, it’s in eternal now being this that is so deep that it’s beyond question of, it’s, it’s a dreaming. That’s how, that’s how I understand it. But,
[00:01:35] Alex Tsakiris: but this is a, this is a dreaming this here now reality is the dreaming. Yeah. Yeah. Probably co-created
[00:01:42] Eve Lorgen: dreaming, you know, but hey, I’m not, I don’t consider myself enlightened.
[00:01:46] Eve Lorgen: I still have a, a long way to go.
[00:01:49] Alex Tsakiris: That is the closest to making sense to me. It’s a co-created dreaming reality for the purpose of our own personal growth of our soul in some way. I mean, that’s the only way I can wrap my arms around it in a way that both feels supported by a total opening to the data and, uh, kind of my personal intuitive sense of it.
The first clip was from the movie, the gray it’s a great scene. And the second was from today’s guest. Eve Lorgan who I was reluctant to in this interview. You’ll see that. I keep trying to pull back, pull back because I didn’t want to hit you with the whole MyLab abduction stuff, underground basis stuff, because somebody people think it’s crazy.
I would, of course suggest that the natural flow of following the data here is just kind of plainly leads in that directions. I mean, we live in a post disclosure world where these things flying around are acknowledged. And we can only assume that there is some form. Of non-human intelligence that is piloting those crafts. That’s the most parsimonious conclusion.
The part that throws people is .
, that evidence dovetails directly with the idea that, that non-human intelligence in some form Is interfering with interacting with people here on our planet, . So given that all that is, is not that hard for people to get to. It’s kind of surprising that people really pull up on the MyLab thing, because if you look at it from its simplest, Perspective and you got to credit Melinda. Leslie, who will come up now or in future episodes as being one of the important voices in this. If you take the, my lab thing from the simplest form of, Hey there’s non-human intelligence, it seemed to be interacting with the humans down here. Well, that’s an intelligence issue. Of course that’s an intelligence issue. Of course, we need to know, we need to know what was the interaction like? What was their technology like?
What, what did they let you fly the ship? Which a lot of people say now, what do they know? What do they want? Those are intelligence questions. Those are questions we would expect. Our intelligence agencies to be asking. So of course they’re asking those, it’s just really hard to swallow my lab.
That’s why I kept pulling back in this interview. And if you go, if you go read Evie stuff, it goes. Oh, two or three steps. That, but I I’ve down with it. I’ve. I’ve down with, uh, some form of all of it in a Skeptiko kind of way.
I hope you enjoy it.
[00:04:34] Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality.
[00:04:39] Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome Eve Logan to Skeptiko Eve has a master’s degree in counseling and psychology and is a trained hypnotherapist.
[00:04:48] Alex Tsakiris: She’s the author of two books, the Dark Side of Cupid, and The Love Bite. She’s an expert, uh, both as a researcher and a therapist in anomalous trauma, particularly as it relates to relationships. . Eve, welcome to Skeptiko. Thanks so much for joining me.
[00:05:07] Eve Lorgen: Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be on your show today.
[00:05:10] Eve Lorgen: And, um, we’ll just go with where you’d like to take it, cuz I know you’ve had some fantastic guests that I actually have known in my life when you, when you showed me the list. So I thought, oh boy, I better, , be my best self today.
[00:05:23] Alex Tsakiris: Well good. I, you know, I’m glad you’re, you’re bringing your game cuz I’m, I am too.
[00:05:28] Alex Tsakiris: You know, we’ve had a really good exchange. I really appreciate how much , you’ve shared with me and you’ve kind of pointed me in different directions as from the way I originally contacted you. And it’s been great and I’ve listened to a lot of your interviews. I, , did read both your books, not thoroughly, especially on the Love Bite.
[00:05:48] Alex Tsakiris: Wasn’t able to get through with that, uh, all the way, but I, you know, I’m, I feel like I have a pretty good grounding in all that and, you know, so what I wanted to do is I wanted to, well, I, I, I’m torn on how to approach this because you are super bright. You do such a great job. You’re such a good presenter.
[00:06:10] Alex Tsakiris: And people who listen to your other interviews, uh, you know, you’re highly intelligent, you’re well trained, and then you’re in this very fringy, fringy out there kind of thing, which even for people who are fringy, it’s fringy and you are not fringy. You know what I mean? You come across as very, so that’s a good thing.
[00:06:33] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. So what I kind of wanted to do though, is I wanted to creep up on some of this stuff a little bit with you in a way that maybe won’t totally freak people out right from the beginning. And will give us a way to maybe even if we get fringy to kind of point out how wacky the non fringy explanation for this stuff is.
[00:07:01] Alex Tsakiris: Because I think there’s really a point to be made there. So, you know, one of the, one of the ways I thought about it is if you were going to the American Psychological Association and we’re asked to come and do a presentation just on anomalous trauma as it relates to relationships, you know, just if you were gonna kind of sanitize it down to that level, what would you talk about?
[00:07:29] Alex Tsakiris: And, because I think if this comes right outta your book, , does that make sense? ,
[00:07:33] Eve Lorgen: No, actually, I’m glad you asked that question because so much more has come to light in the counseling circles, especially relationship counseling with respect to, , what they used to call it in the old days was like codependency and, , addictions and family systems of alcoholics and co alcoholics and abusers.
[00:07:52] Eve Lorgen: And in the old days, I mean, I got my master’s in 92, so that was quite a while ago. But even then, it was a popular term that they threw around codependency, but I had no idea the depth of what it really means with respect to what now they’re calling complex trauma or complex P T S D and how that manifests in relationship, uh, styles of relating that have to do a lot with, um, not only certain personality disorders, which is kind of a psychobabble term, but how our rg early attachment styles when we’re, you know, young babies and children affect how we relate later in life.
[00:08:34] Eve Lorgen: So I think our vulnerability to having, let’s say, dysfunctional relationships that don’t work, that have a lot of bizarre and uh, conflicting characteristics. It could be because of Unrecovered complex trauma that we really didn’t get to the root of, let’s say people now call it shadow work. Well, we gotta do our inner child shadow work and work out those traumas you had when you were a kid and old marriage woes or whatever.
[00:09:03] Eve Lorgen: But it’s actually much more difficult than one would think because with complex trauma it means that it is something that usually starts from birth till, you know, teenagehood or whatever. So that means your brain has developed a certain style of relating with the nervous system that affects how you respond to, you know, what you think are threats or triggers.
[00:09:29] Eve Lorgen: So, long story short, I think, , a lot of the codependency, , issues are the narcissistic abuse. Like everything’s all about narcissists and narcissistic abuse. And that is, has some merit in terms of what people notice in relationships and especially people who’ve been abused in narcissistic abuse relationships.
[00:09:51] Eve Lorgen: So what I found is that with my work that I came from another angle. I came from wanting to study what was happening with people who claim to have. Multiple alien visitation, abduction experiences in their family lines, and then relationships that they had in their families as well as with their romantic and marriage partners or those that seemed to be set up by these beings that were interacting with them on these other levels.
[00:10:21] Alex Tsakiris: , if I can interject, like I’m gonna pull the reins a little bit on the alien contact, not cuz, I mean, I go there all the time and as a matter of fact, that’s how I, I came to your doorstep is by interviewing people from my area of research, like near death experience research, near death, experience science.
[00:10:40] Alex Tsakiris: And some of those people are saying, Hey, There’s some kind of et non non-human intelligence interference here thing. So I, I’m with you on that. I’m not like afraid to go there. But what I wanna draw people’s attention to, and I wanted to draw you out on this because you do it in, in the book, , the Dark Side of Cupid, I think in a really cool and very grounded way at the beginning, and that’s this thing of anomalous trauma and anomalous experiences.
[00:11:08] Alex Tsakiris: So I’ve had these kind of conversations with people who go to the American Psychological Association and they’re kind of struggling with, Hey, I’m trying to get these guys to talk about like spiritually transformative experiences, which all these people are having. We can’t deny, but psychology wants to pretend, well, no, that doesn’t really, let’s look the other way.
[00:11:31] Alex Tsakiris: And then when you get into near death experiences or you get into premonitions, precognition, all this stuff, psychology is reluctantly over the last 20 years, had to say, well, I can’t completely look away from that. And then what you are bringing to the table, which I thought was just fascinating and I hadn’t thought about before, but I can see you at the a p a giving this presentation and saying, what do you do with the relationship when the start of the relationship comes?
[00:12:06] Alex Tsakiris: I could telepathically hear what he was saying. I had a premonition, I had a dream that he was gonna show up, that she was gonna show up. We all have this. I, I remember when I, the first time I saw my wife over 30 years ago, I, there was something about it, there was something about the first time I laid eyes on her.
[00:12:27] Alex Tsakiris: And I, I, I don’t know, but I think this is common to so many people when they talk about this, there is , an anomalous aspect a lot of times associated with relationships. Sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s not good, but this has not really been even touched on from a psychological standpoint.
[00:12:46] Alex Tsakiris: And, and you are going there in a number of respects in this book beyond their, or I’d say as a precursor or a part of the whole, the ET thing that we’ll get into.
[00:12:56] Eve Lorgen: Yeah, I think, I mean, a lot of it is that we actually, as many humans, we don’t have just five senses. We have much more, and there’s many people who have more heightened perception in different ways.
[00:13:09] Eve Lorgen: So they could precog, for example, , before something happens, or, , being able to intuitively, , communicate with someone, sometimes telepathically or sometimes just senti, knowing what they’re feeling and knowing when you’re gonna see them next. So I’ve met many people who have those abilities that are natural.
[00:13:29] Eve Lorgen: And so when they explain having something that they think is, uh, orchestrated by an entity, it’s often because they have a perception that’s above and beyond the norm. Or the relationship is definitely beyond the norm of even, let’s say, , you know, a bizarre, something bizarre with a narcissist, for example.
[00:13:50] Eve Lorgen: So there was enough witness testimonies in my work that indicated there’s much more going on that we didn’t even think was in our reality, and we need to take a look at it so that we can really regain our own sense of power and control in our lives and learn how to mitigate the negative effects of that so we don’t fall vulnerable.
[00:14:12] Eve Lorgen: So a lot of my work was really how to strengthen ourselves so that we are not vulnerable to these influences and that know when they’re happening or before they happen and know what to do, so that it doesn’t become a problem and it doesn’t really hit you over the head like a horrible love obsession for years and years and years and, you know, believing it’s your twin flame and then have all these strengths things happen.
[00:14:36] Eve Lorgen: So I run across that and. I know that there are paranormal influences that are beyond the norm that do happen and that they’ve even photographed things. And so we know they happen. It’s just for the standard five senses person who believes in only the, I don’t know, the Western scientific model or even the, the psychological model of what they think is the psych or what what they think is a human is limited to what we’re really experiencing now.
[00:15:08] Eve Lorgen: And I think that limitation of what we think science is or humans are, keeps us as a race more powerless than we have to be. And that we could actually overcome much more and be much more if we start going beyond those five senses and start exploring more deeply who we are. And this kind of gets into the, the question that one of my colleagues, Dr.
[00:15:34] Eve Lorgen: Carrado Malanga of Italy, who is actually a PhD in organic chemistry, he’s a professor and he did research with alien abductions in Italy along with the U F O phenomena and how that kind of connected and really, you know, his bottom line was, , we have to know who we are as humans in order to fully understand what these other beings are and what they’re really doing.
[00:15:57] Eve Lorgen: And once we know who we are and we could really connect more deeply with that, which is really our eternal spirit, uh, then we have much more understanding and power in our lives to really live the way we want to live and not have to worry about having these bizarre things happen to us.
[00:16:16] Alex Tsakiris: Okay, so this is gonna be an interesting kind of, uh, tug of war, but it’s a true dialogue and I, uh, I really love the fact that it’s so deep.
[00:16:28] Alex Tsakiris: Your, your work is so deep. And the other thing I should say is that you are coming at this from a people helper perspective. That’s what you do. And as your book’s evidence, there are a lot of people that are suffering greatly. They’re unable to get on with their lives in so many ways due to anomalous trauma.
[00:16:49] Alex Tsakiris: And you know, like, cuz the, the reason I kind of pull up and kind of jump all over the place is like every word we would have to parse when we say these entities now we’re implying non-human intelligence. Are we also talking about, uh, spirit beings? Are we talking about, , kind of satanic, malevolent?
[00:17:07] Alex Tsakiris: What does satanic even mean? Do we have to couch it in some kind of biblical perspective or does it go beyond that? I wrote a book a few years ago Why Evil Matters. That’s was the, the point of the book was that we don’t process evil at all really in our society. We’re either secular and go, it doesn’t exist.
[00:17:24] Alex Tsakiris: Or somebody’s gonna pull out their Bible and say, no, I’ll tell you what it is. It’s right here. And it’s confined to this little book here. And neither one of those makes sense. We wound up with the kind of schizophrenic idea of what evil is. So I’m, I’m down with so much what you’re saying. I agree that from a people helper perspective, which is where you’re coming at it, you are obligated to go where these people are and enter into their world, which is also, you have your own experience with this and then work through that.
[00:17:56] Alex Tsakiris: You know, I’m not coming at it from this perspective, right? I mean, I just spoke to, you know, the guy interviewed just last week, terrific guy. , Vinny had a near death experience. He was dead for an hour. Riga mortis had set in, and the, the E m t in the ambulance cuts the body bag open because there’s this light that comes in and the voice shines and a voice talks to Vinny can see the voice.
[00:18:24] Alex Tsakiris: This guy can’t see. It says that this guy isn’t dead, puts the paddles on him. Vinny is resuscitated, has this incredible near-death experience, right. And Vinny comes through. And so what the, the whole thing with Vinny was very interesting. But one of the things I get from the near-death experience, and I’ve talked to, I’ve talked to a bunch of people, is that death experience is definitely evidence, very convincing evidence that consciousness survives bodily death.
[00:18:51] Alex Tsakiris: I believe that it’s evidence of a moral hierarchy. Uh, uh, God, if you will, but it’s not evidence of Jesus. It’s, but a lot, some people come back and that’s what they see as Jesus, right? That’s their experience. So my point is, you are a people helper. You have to go where people are. I am this kind of researcher inquiry to perpetuate doubt guy.
[00:19:19] Alex Tsakiris: I’m looking at a lot of these cases and going, you know, we’re probably in sync on some of this stuff. But some of the other stuff, it, it, it’s just, it’s kind of confusing the whole situation. And that’s where I was going initially. I, I’m sorry to go on and on, but I, I want us to be on the same footing so you know where I’m coming from.
[00:19:39] Alex Tsakiris: Cuz at this point I know a lot more about where you’re coming from than you know where I’m coming from. But like, relationships are complicated, right? So you’re in field where, hey man, take all the anomalous stuff out of it. It’s complicated on a just basic level of, you know, how do we get along? Who’s gonna change a diaper?
[00:20:00] Alex Tsakiris: Uh, did you bring your check home? You know, we gotta pay the rent kind of thing. It’s complicated on an emotional level of love and this, and the deepest part of me, and you’re so hot, baby, and it’s complicated on this spiritual level of, you know, it’s compensating on a deep psychology level of, uh, you know, you do that just like my fricking mother, you know, I, you, you’re driving me nuts kind of thing.
[00:20:22] Alex Tsakiris: Mm-hmm. So there’s so much to tease out before we even get into the anomalous stuff. Yeah. I’m so glad that the, you’re there bringing in the first layer of anomalous stuff is, like you said, there’s this extended consciousness realm. We are all psychic, telepathic, all the rest of this. And now you’re gonna layer on top of that, that potentially there’s advanced non-human intelligence or demonic stuff or whatever that is actually trying to manipulate that process.
[00:20:55] Alex Tsakiris: So you, you get where I’m coming from, I’m a little. I, I, I’m a little bit reluctant to go all the way with some of your stuff, for all the reasons that I think we need to tease a lot of stuff out before we jump all the way to the end. What, what are your thoughts on that? I’m sure you’ve, you’ve thought a lot about this.
[00:21:16] Alex Tsakiris: You’ve worked through a lot of this, that’s, you have 20, how many years of experience doing this?
[00:21:21] Eve Lorgen: Good now? I mean, I, I think I wasn’t, well, what drew me to be interested was my own experiences that had to do with, uh, U F O sightings and what I thought were et encounters and paranormal experiences and that kind of thing.
[00:21:36] Eve Lorgen: So, and my own family, I mean, I was drawn because my, my father worked for Lockheed and he had like books that were aerial phenomena and then some of the early U F O books, and I became interested because I had sightings and experiences that I thought were benevolent, but I didn’t really remember.
[00:21:53] Eve Lorgen: There’s always this amnesia thing. So there was an incongruence with the excitement about these positive Space Brothers and UFOs, and then this horrible fear behind the real experience itself. So what really, I mean, I was a scientist before I became a therapist. I was a biochemist and then changed my, my field of study cuz I didn’t really wanna go there anymore.
[00:22:15] Eve Lorgen: I wanted to learn more about humans and psychology and work with my own family of origin issues, which I thought could contribute to my understanding of all the other stuff, which it did. But I don’t think it explains everything that happens. Some people seem to have these unusual experiences without having had early family trauma to, to blame it on as being, let’s say, a vulnerable victim being at the wrong place at the wrong time because of something.
[00:22:42] Eve Lorgen: And so they’re normal people who were just kind of plucked up and taken and, and had these unusual experiences. So, what can I say? Um, but my understanding of human psychology and trauma helped me understand how to help people so that they could actually get to the root of their experiences and actually remember or recover from the trauma.
[00:23:06] Eve Lorgen: So if somebody understands complex trauma or complex P T S D and starts working with, um, working with their nervous system to rebalance it and emotionally regulate and get your true human needs met, which by the way, many people don’t even get their real needs met. And, um, Not even from the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, but even even less than that.
[00:23:31] Eve Lorgen: So you’re talking about a lot of people, if if they really got their needs met, they would be at a place where they could actually process and understand and remember and be able to deal with these things. But it’s, it’s almost like, you know, once you get in a vulnerable state, you’re, you’re more easy prey, I think, for some of these things that are happening and that they are.
[00:23:53] Eve Lorgen: And there’s a lot of trauma related to, , the alien abduction experience as well as, , the my labs, which we really didn’t talk about yet, but that’s was something that I discovered kind of coexisted with many of the people having the experiences there was, there was a human element working in conjunction with, or because of the alien abduction experiences, which indicated that, well, it must be real.
[00:24:17] Eve Lorgen: Why are they interested in following up and finding out what happened to these people because there really is an issue. So that kind of opened up a whole can of worms and a, and a, a research that kind of came with a lot of smoke and mirrors and, uh, f X file kind of. Instead of human psychology. And I think it’s unfortunate that many people who’ve had these unusual experiences, they can’t, they don’t feel comfortable just going to a regular psychologist.
[00:24:46] Eve Lorgen: Sometimes they’ll wanna go to a specialist in hypnotherapy or somebody who’s in the field who’s had experiences and then they start taking consultations based on their experiences because they don’t feel that they would be, you know, justly, , perceived and they would just be thrown on medication or something.
[00:25:03] Eve Lorgen: So, , that’s unfortunate cuz I know that that does happen,
[00:25:08] Alex Tsakiris: right. So, , again, you know, we’ll just keep going down this thing and see how it goes. So it might be interesting for me to throw out kind of how I directly kind of came to you. So I interviewed this guy a couple months ago.
[00:25:22] Alex Tsakiris: Dr. Jason Giorgianni, he’s a philosopher and was kind of a very, , go-to guy in the field of parapsychology but the point is, he starts pushing this idea that the near-death experience and the reincarnation.
[00:25:39] Alex Tsakiris: Experience and the science associated with that is subject to interference in this extended consciousness realm, right? So I had Jason on and I was, I wanted to push him on that a little bit. And I said, well, you know, my read of the science can’t really line up with that in a couple of important ways.
[00:25:59] Alex Tsakiris: One, the work in reincarnation science is among the most well disciplined and thorough work done by Ian Stevenson and, , all those people at University of Virginia, , a lot of people have looked at that peer-reviewed work and said, that’s very solid.
[00:26:18] Alex Tsakiris: That is not consistent with like, Ted’s account of all , reincarnation are subject to alien kind of thing. It just doesn’t fit with it. And the same with the near death experience science. I mean, where the near death experience science really takes us. I in a way that would directly contradict this idea of the aliens are running the show.
[00:26:38] Alex Tsakiris: There is the stuff that is the cross-cultural cross time look at near death experience. So you look at Dr. Gregory Shon, um, trained at Oxford College of London now publishes peer review papers of, you know, 600, 700 years ago. All these. Near-death experience accounts across culture, across time, and they all lead to beliefs in an afterlife belief that’s relatively consistent with modern day near-death experience.
[00:27:10] Alex Tsakiris: Plus you have the current near-death experience science, which would contradict a lot of what’s going on. But , what does come through I think is the, exactly what you’re talking about is the potential for there being some technological component to both of those things that is possibly being interfered with.
[00:27:31] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, we can’t turn away from that data, but when I read some of that stuff and people are like, I got it all handled and Jesus told me, and reincarnation isn’t real and near death experience that doesn’t hold up to, to scrutiny either. So I’m kind of struggling with all the great information you guys are bringing in and then sorting it out in a way that is consistent with this other body of science that just doesn’t seem to, to work its way into this work either.
[00:28:07] Alex Tsakiris: So I know I’m blame a lot on the table here. Is any of that
[00:28:11] Eve Lorgen: I wish I heard of this guy because it, cuz I know I’ve, I’ve had clients, , Who have had experiences where they were recycled in an unnatural way in, in incarnated, in bodies where, , they remembered. I mean, this actually happens a lot with the, my labs and the people in the Secret Space program where it’s as if, , they made a bargain in an, in another life.
[00:28:33] Eve Lorgen: Sometimes it’s, it’s in a Nazi era where they were high up in the SS and were in the occult level, making oaths to these entities or something, and then, or entrapped to work for them. And basically promising even beyond the grave that they’ll work for ’em. And then finding that, , after they died, their soul was taken and then held like in a test tube or something, and then recycled into a body.
[00:28:58] Eve Lorgen: And then they had recall of what they were, you know, in the Nazi era, you know, that, that way. And then they were my labs this time around and one one of these programs. So I’ve had some who remembered like where they were murdered and then their soul was captured in like a lower astral realm and then recycled into another body that was put in directly into a project.
[00:29:21] Eve Lorgen: So it, so the natural, maybe the natural reincarnation system would be, you know, you go up to a higher realm and then you work with higher beings that maybe you make a decision to come back. For some reason. But in some of these other experiences, it’s like they don’t go up to the higher realms. They actually get recycled from a lower astrol, and then they’ll, they actually have more recall of the life before.
[00:29:45] Eve Lorgen: , and then they’ll remember like in the 1940s or something. It’s really strange, but that’s not real common. But I’ve had it happen enough times where I’m thinking something has happened where they, they’re able to, well, that, that’s the weird stuff. Capture the soul and transfer the soul. A type of transfer of soul consciousness technology.
[00:30:08] Alex Tsakiris: So yeah, I’m just not, I’m not convinced that we can rely on those kind of, uh, accounts directly. I, uh, I, but I think I, I, I wanna make sure you understand where I’m coming from because we run into the exact same thing, exact same thing with near-death experience accounts, right? Where there is an overall pattern there that is to a certain extent verifiable by science, you know, so the near death experience, the history is these people started having near-death experiences and the scientists get involved and said, wait a minute.
[00:30:46] Alex Tsakiris: These things are all over the board. This guy had a near death experience jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. This person had it when they were in a plane crash. This person, what we need to do is study. Scientifically, medically. So then they started bringing the near death experience into the cardiac arrest ward and they go, okay, now we got it.
[00:31:04] Alex Tsakiris: We can basically control for the physiology. We know what happens when your heart stops. We know that the blood flow to your brain stops. We know you can’t have conscious memories, let alone the most profound experience of your life. There’s no way to explain that from our current neurological model. So when we do that, we bring it into the hospital and now we get the same things happening in terms of near-death experience.
[00:31:27] Alex Tsakiris: We can go, aha, we, we do have reason to believe the consciousness survives bodily death. But the accounts, no, we can’t really process these accounts. Like I told you, I mean, I got, I got a guy who comes back and says, Hey, I saw Jesus. And I said, well, do you know Christ consciousness? I get it. You know, it’s a topa kind of thing.
[00:31:49] Alex Tsakiris: Maybe we don’t know what it is, but you know, whatever. He’s like, no, it was Jesus. And a matter of fact, he goes around to churches and he kind of says, if you didn’t see Jesus, then you know your N D E is probably Satanic and all the rest of this nonsense. Alls I can say from a science standpoint is the near death experience.
[00:32:09] Alex Tsakiris: Science as a whole does not agree with Ian McCormick’s wacky, Christian centric idea of near death experiences. Most near death experiences, like 80, 90% say yes, God, yes, love, yes, universal truth, but no to, uh, to religion and stuff like that. I don’t even know if, how, how much we’d, how firm we’d wanna be on that.
[00:32:34] Alex Tsakiris: But the one thing that comes through Evie, is do not rely on individual accounts. That’s like the conversation I just had with Vinny, who is terrific. But at the end I said, and Vinny was super open, super great guy, and it lives, the lives the, the spirit of, uh, someone who’s been spiritually transformed by their near-death experience.
[00:32:57] Alex Tsakiris: But his thing is ultimately goes, yeah, I get it. These lessons that I learned in my near-death experience were vinny’s lessons for Vinny to learn, not to go out and proselytize and, you know, bang Bibles on people and all the rest of this stuff. That’s not how God doesn’t work that way, you know what I mean?
[00:33:16] Alex Tsakiris: God is moving all of us along our own path in the, in our own way kind of thing. So do you understand, I mean, some of the accounts in the book, no. Ted’s account now, the Christian centered stuff, all the Christian centered stuff, just the Jesus stuff is completely inconsistent from a logical basis with anything else we know about near-death experience.
[00:33:41] Alex Tsakiris: Anything else we know about, , continuation of consciousness, near-death experience? It just doesn’t fit. And yet why are we trying to jam
[00:33:49] Eve Lorgen: that in there? Yeah, I’m, I’m just curious about how little research there is in, I think in the Asian, in the Daoist, um, perspective of what happens at death and the dissolution of the five elements and what happens with our consciousness and what goes to the higher realms and what goes back to earth and how they perceive, , an N D E or when a soul comes back or when a soul is transferred.
[00:34:15] Eve Lorgen: Like, , there must be, you know, ways that they do this in different ways. Like in Oriental medicine, I studied oriental medicine before I’d got my other degree because I was, I knew there was more to this. And, and one of the reasons why was to try to figure out what do we not know in our Western model of thinking that these other beings must know how they’re affecting us and how can we apply understanding things in a different way so that we can work with this in a different way.
[00:34:43] Eve Lorgen: And so incorporating, let’s say a dais model of the five elements, for example, and how, , that might change, you know, how they affect our consciousness.
[00:34:54] Alex Tsakiris: And how, are you familiar with the Tibetan Book of the Dead?
[00:34:57] Eve Lorgen: Yes. Because I was a Tibetan Buddhist for many years, as a matter of fact, and, , learned, you know, dream yoga and, um, did many meditation retreats and, you know, so I think there must be other ways to understand this and, , even like the whole rainbow body thing, that there must be something that happens scientifically.
[00:35:15] Eve Lorgen: If there’s enough of these cases where, you know, the, the body literally disappears except for the hair and nails and they, and they transform and transmute into light. There’s something going on there that we have yet to have, I think, scientific evidence in the Western world that knows what’s going on there.
[00:35:33] Alex Tsakiris: But I’m so, so let me ask you, because you probably know more about this than I do, and, and I, I’d, I’d love to, to learn and expand on this stuff. So you take the Tibetan Book of the Dead, which is very, uh, uh, uh, precise and is really just one book among a larger kind of canon they have about what’s happening at this near death ex at this near death time, this after death time, and this between lives time and then this free incarnation time.
[00:36:02] Alex Tsakiris: So how, how is that, how, how are you squaring that with what you’re hearing from people who are having these kinds of experiences?
[00:36:13] Eve Lorgen: Well, I think people have experiences based on their level of perception and, and I think actually even a practicing Buddhist. Who, who does a meditation practice, or let’s say lucid dreaming and dream yoga would have a better ability to have a better purity of perception, let’s say, within an experience and be able to assess it from a different standpoint.
[00:36:34] Eve Lorgen: If you can be free of quote, attachment and greed and fear and desire, and be in this like witnessing consciousness to observe what happens. And so, , this is actually a place where, where I’m going in my research with people who do dreamwork and lucid dreamwork in order to observe how this happens in, within lucidity and then how to prevent it from happening and how to directly access what we call spiritual truth communication and archetypal language and symbols that happen in a, in a.
[00:37:09] Eve Lorgen: And then working with that to find out how we can connect with our higher power of truth so that we understand what’s interacting with us from, its how it’s being communicated through the direct truth of what our spirit is telling us. In a, in lucidity, and I know it’s kind of like a, a whole jumble of words, but in order to assess correctly, we really need to know, let’s say in the body and out of the body and in different states of consciousness what we’re really perceiving and what we’re assuming, who our identity even is.
[00:37:43] Eve Lorgen: So this gets back to like really having to recover our own traumas and getting really, really clear on nothing but our, our awareness of beingness that goes beyond even our, , personality. And so we can do this, and I think there are some people who do, but it’s not a easy place. It’s not something easy to do while you’re still in trauma and not getting your human needs met to even, let’s say, meditate or pay your bills or be free of abuse, you know?
[00:38:12] Eve Lorgen: But I think there’s different ways to perceive this more correctly if we can have lucidity and calmness in different states of consciousness.
[00:38:22] Alex Tsakiris: Wow. There’s, there’s a ton there. I’ve done a couple of shows on dream yoga and, , as a practice exactly what you’re saying. One of the gentlemen I interviewed was, was just terrific. . He was under mentorship of his, , Buddhist elder kind of guy.
[00:38:39] Alex Tsakiris: And what I remember I thought was really interesting. He was doing dream yoga and he was somewhat successful at reaching these other states and as you’re saying, being, , detached enough to kind of observe. And then the guy goes, okay, so now what you have to do is you have to go into the hell space. Oh no.
[00:38:58] Alex Tsakiris: He’s like, that’s what he said. He said, no, uh, Maggie. But eventually he, you know, he built up the. Personal power, whatever, to go there into doing that. But what I really took away was that this is, these are are practices that have been, , carried out for a long period of time. They have a lot of expertise on it, in exactly the way that you’re talking about, and can lead people through it in a way that does seem pretty quasi scientific in a way.
[00:39:28] Alex Tsakiris: Like, Hey, just tell me what you observed. You know, uh, kind of like a good hypnotherapist does with, uh, alien Abee,
[00:39:37] Eve Lorgen: , I could only go from my personal experience where I had a direct realization, which is different from an experience, , a direct realization of eternal beingness that is beyond the fragment of personality identity that we have in these human bodies or even out of the body in this.
[00:39:53] Eve Lorgen: So, and I knew that it was related to Christ Jesus, but it was more like a, a memory realization. And so that actually kept me on a trail of trying to discover what was that about and actually led me to Buddhism more than anything else in dream yoga and trying to understand things from that perspective, knowing that there isn’t eternal beingness, that is our true identity and, , our true home, and that this is a dreaming.
[00:40:22] Eve Lorgen: So we are actually dreaming this body here, like co dreaming it. So if we can get lucid in. Dreaming here. And in our dreamings, in our sleep dreams, we can have a clearer way of perceiving what our real nature is. That’s above and beyond personality. So that’s, but I knew that deep inside, based on my experience.
[00:40:47] Eve Lorgen: But even with I think Buddhist, um, practice, I think it has a lot of value when they tell you that not to identify too strongly with the thoughts that are coming in or with what you’re fearing or desiring and trying to stay kind of clear and calm and then just observe the arising of what, what’s happening in the experience.
[00:41:08] Eve Lorgen: And that I think that has great value so that you, you start to see what’s coming from your own mind, what actually coming from outside your mind, like other people like telepathy is real. Okay. But one thing that I did not learn from Tibetan Buddhism or, or advanced practices was the depth of, uh, complex trauma that happens, let’s say in relationships in your family of origin, , that affect your ability to relate in a way where you can actually give and receive love in a way where you feel loved and you feel like you really have your true human needs met.
[00:41:46] Eve Lorgen: So, in other words, relationships and relationship dynamics that are related to actually our early attachment. Styles as were raised, is much more important in, in terms of just being able to get on with your life and having a balanced life. So you can be like a real advanced yogi and meditator and then sometimes that just makes you more dissociated.
[00:42:10] Eve Lorgen: But it, but when you have to go back to the real relationship stuff or going deep into the origins of complex trauma and the identities that we created as a result or a response to that trauma, we have to go beyond that to our eternal nature that went before our personality was even developed, even from zero years years old to six years old.
[00:42:31] Eve Lorgen: So this is where you have to go as deep as a yogi to go to your eternal nature that came into this body to begin with. And then, then you could transform all that crap and all that complex trauma. So you could function from a much more, uh, I don’t know, enlightened place and not react to the usual triggers and won’t have the same kinds of relationship patterns that you had before.
[00:42:57] Eve Lorgen: Cuz what tends to happen is that even though people have gotten educated, they did all this trauma work, they still like, they’re like, what? I’m a NORC magnet. You know, they keep running into like these narcissists or, well, they’ll run into, , you know, these bad relationships and they don’t know why. Like why does this keep happening?
[00:43:15] Eve Lorgen: And I know on a cognitive level, This, this is not right, this doesn’t feel right, but why does it keep happening? And then kind of have to go through, well, what’s all that about? And having to get to the deep root of, you know, why these things happen. And it, I think it kind of goes into a little bit of karma and a little bit of understanding the spiritual forces behind what’s really interacting in our lives and directing events and timelines.
[00:43:41] Eve Lorgen: So that’s where I’ve had to go in order to try to understand like, well, why, you know, do these love by things keep happening to people who have had abductions or they, they happen to be plucked out for this experimental project by these alien beings, and then they keep having these certain patterns and relationships over and over again, maybe until they learn something new or they bypass it in a certain way and then that that thing doesn’t happen anymore and then they’re off on another project or something.
[00:44:11] Eve Lorgen: Yeah,
[00:44:13] Alex Tsakiris: deeper, a deeper thing. Yeah. Well, there’s a lot deeper things and there’s so much to, to really get into. It’s, it’s impossible really. And I hope I’m not gonna frustrate you or frustrate listeners as I try and parse through this, but we’ll just do the best we can. So take what you were just saying there, which really gets into your main thing, which is the interference in a, from an anomalous perspective in relationships.
[00:44:42] Alex Tsakiris: , but I am gonna want to tease it out a little bit because even if we just. Is it possible that malevolent entities, as we would typically understand them, to be demons, dark forces, whatever, black magic, uh, whatever, are interfering with relationships in exactly the way that you’re talking about, there’s a tunnel.
[00:45:04] Alex Tsakiris: People will go, heck yes, I know that directly. I’ve talked to some of ’em and they said people have cast spells and these other things. So whether somebody wants to go there or not, you can again, look across culture and across time and these things pop up over and over and over again. The, you would have to be pretty hard-headed, closed-minded, materialist to just take all of that and just throw it, uh, throw it to the side.
[00:45:31] Alex Tsakiris: So that’s one class of this anomalous interference in relationships and I want you to speak to that and speak to why we would even suspect that that is happening for all the reasons that we were just talking about a minute ago. And then, is the et non-human intelligence thing different? Because it feels to me like it’s different and yet we kind of, I think, blend them together in a way that isn’t super helpful, cuz there’s a technology component there.
[00:46:02] Alex Tsakiris: There’s a different agenda. Component there? Is that a, can we bifurcate that way or do they bleed over too much in ways that we don’t understand?
[00:46:13] Eve Lorgen: No, I think you said all of that actually is true. There are, , definitely, what would they call attached entities and demonic overlays, , and sometimes full on possession.
[00:46:23] Eve Lorgen: And, um, I’ve had clients report those things to me where it would happen. Like the classic one would be like a reptilian lizard snake-like being, would overshadow the lover that they’re having sex with and then all of a sudden they’ll see and then like shapeshift while they’re having sex because it’s the, the entity that’s actually feeding on the sexual energy.
[00:46:44] Eve Lorgen: So a lot of times clairvoyantly you, you just like, actually, you literally see it like in your third eye. Um, for people who are per some, some even normal non psychics can see it because it’s, it’s so amazing when that happens. So people see things like shape shifty. So that definitely happens. And the, I don’t know, I mean, a lot of people are naturally psychic and so they perceive these things, or paranormal activity, like when somebody comes over, like after they, there’s in my book, like let’s say you start dating someone and you have this interesting attraction, then you have a lot of these weird synchronicities that happen that sometimes it’s mixed up with, uh, now it’s mixed up with technology like texting and AI and all that kind of shit.
[00:47:28] Eve Lorgen: I think there’s a connection there. Let’s say after dating them, and then this entity keeps visiting you, that’s like a demonic, uh, strange entity that’s connected to the, the partner you were dating and is like a demonn. And so then you have to do like a, a clearing and a prayer and a whatever to clear yourself from the entity you actually got from somebody who dated.
[00:47:50] Eve Lorgen: And that sometimes you could see it like overshadowing, like literally it’s like a shadow that comes over ’em, or their, their eyes will change or they’ll have a sudden personality shift where you know, you know, something unnatural just happened and then it could happen when your, your clocks stop or your cell phone battery becomes dead.
[00:48:08] Eve Lorgen: And like with abductions, for example, we would know something happened if, you know, the same night, you know, your cell phone battery like went dead and you had to recharge it like over and over and over again. There was nothing wrong with your phone. And then three light bulbs in the house burned out like on the same night.
[00:48:24] Eve Lorgen: And then on the same night, like two people in the house had the same dream that something really weird happened. And, and then at the same time, so you knew like something happened because all, all these different things happened at the same time. So we would start connecting the dots that, you know, electrical malfunctions, cell phone, batteries, technologies, and , weird nightmares or missing time would happen, you know, around the same time.
[00:48:49] Eve Lorgen: So the way we know there’s, there’s something going on and it does affect electrical equipment. , we know that, and it could affect your health. You could wake up with body marks and stuff. So, um, so I believe, you know, these things happen based on what people report to me and then how it feels when, when you’re around someone who’s, who’s hosted.
[00:49:09] Eve Lorgen: I mean, it’s hard not to, if you’re a empathic person and you’re like around somebody who’s got an entity, you could feel it sometimes. You could see it, you know? And , and it seems like many of the people who have had lifelong abductions, first one reason or another, I’m sure Mary Rodwell might have mentioned this, it’s like they’re all basically psychic.
[00:49:28] Eve Lorgen: All these people are just, they’re naturally psychic. And sometimes the reason why these military groups take them is cuz they were already psychic as children and then they wanna turn around and use them and these other projects and use ’em as remote viewers or psychic spies or, or whatever. And they’re doing these other things clandestinely and they’re hiding it under some, like an alien abduction.
[00:49:49] Eve Lorgen: So it, it’s through the people who’ve had more clairvoyant perception that they’re able to see a little bit more of what’s going on. They just can get a little bit bigger picture. But I don’t think that means that they can’t be deceived by the entities that are masquerading and doing things. In fact, one of the things that.
[00:50:09] Eve Lorgen: That I believe is like the, the hugest thing that we can do to empower ourselves as humans is number one, we need to be able to recover and heal from complex trauma and truly understand on a purely human psychological level and the body and the nervous system, okay, that’s real simple science. And then if we could truly recover and get what we truly need and, and, you know, go through recovery that way, that will help one level of not being vulnerable.
[00:50:36] Eve Lorgen: But the other level is spiritual deception, which actually blocks your ability to perceive clearly what your eternal spirit and quote the spirit of the all that is. That is good would be trying to tell you. So what we noticed, what was happening, and this was part of Dr. Carrado Milan’s research of Italy who worked with Abductees, and he found that these entities that are, let’s say not as benevolent, they, we have something that they don’t have, therefore they want it.
[00:51:04] Eve Lorgen: Okay? So it’s kind of like the eternal spirit battery they want. So they could live through us like parasites and just kind of put in their, , flash drive of consciousness, uh, mind, and then live through us and have us do what they want us to do and to believe and so they could interfere in the. Ability to perceive and communicate with our higher self, for example, and then be able to pretend they’re our spirit guide, or they’re may be a past life memory or we, we are an alien in a past life or make us think things and have downloads and memories that really come from a different place.
[00:51:41] Eve Lorgen: So this is where, this is where we have to be absolutely, uh, serious and honest about wanting to connect with the most high, regardless of what we were believing before. And the only the truth, no matter how hard it hurts, so that we can connect with the most high and have that show us so that we can receive the truth and then be able to perceive how that comes to us in our unique way to show us what the truth is about anything going on in our life.
[00:52:10] Eve Lorgen: And then the spirit does come through in many miraculous ways. It doesn’t matter, I don’t think. It doesn’t, doesn’t matter your faith. And I think the more faith you have in something good, the more it can communicate with you and actually show you what’s going. And so that’s, that’s the way to go. You have to be really honest and not wanna believe in something that feels good, cuz it makes you feel popular or whatever the channeled messages are.
[00:52:36] Eve Lorgen: But just be completely honest and open about the absolute truth no matter what it is, so that you could receive it in from your own internal natural resources to the connection to your eternal spirit. And that’s where, where we need to go with it. That’s when we find the truth. That’s what
[00:52:52] Alex Tsakiris: I believe. I I love that.
[00:52:55] Alex Tsakiris: I, I love so many things about that. ,
[00:52:57] Alex Tsakiris: I’m challenged though with some of that in terms of like, when you jump in and say, you know, they live through us, it’s some kind of harvesting of energy and stuff like that. Uh, we don’t know that. I don’t think we know that. And I, and I can understand that that is your experience from, you know, working with these people.
[00:53:14] Alex Tsakiris: But again, I keep coming back to the tagline or the ethos of Skeptiko is inquiry to perpetuate doubt. I think doubt is a spiritual thing. I think that greater love, light truth that we know is there, doesn’t want us to be certain. Certainty is for something else, is for another realm, another realm of knowing when everything is known in that other realm.
[00:53:43] Alex Tsakiris: That’s what people tell us from that other realm is I knew everything. You couldn’t even ask a question. And the answer came into my head and then I was put back down in this time space reality and, , not so much of, , knowing everything, but where I was trying to, , go with that and, and you did take us there, is that if we want to look at, , malevolent entities in this extended consciousness realm, we have a lot of anthropological support for that.
[00:54:14] Alex Tsakiris: We can go look at all these cultures where they’ll tell you the exactly the kind of stories you’re talking about from the shamonic experience going over in the Shamonic dream and having ser always, it’s always serpents or it’s crocodiles or it’s whatever, and they’re coming in and they’re interfering, they’ll have spells being cast on people to break up lovers or to bring lovers together.
[00:54:38] Alex Tsakiris: All the stuff you’re talking about is there in the shamonic traditions with no et overlay on it. So that makes me wonder, should we be considering that without et, without non-human intelligence? And what does that tell us about non-human intelligence? And the other thing, cuz I like to throw so many things on the table all at once, is, I don’t think Mary Rodwell would come down on the same side you guys do in terms of these beings being, , all negative.
[00:55:11] Alex Tsakiris: She sees a lot more positive beings in the non-human intelligence realm. And what she does is kind of say the MyLab stuff is she’s kind of, she’s, if you will, to me, a little bit too much, segmenting all the negative stuff. Oh, that’s all my lab. Which, yeah, I don’t think makes, I don’t think makes sense, but I don’t think it makes sense to say, oh, this is all dark.
[00:55:36] Alex Tsakiris: You know, this is, everything that ET is doing is, is all dark. It’s a, there’s too much genuine spiritual experiences that people are having there. There’s some of it, there’s healing, which is hard to kind of see in any other way as helping people get on with their life. There is a lot of negative stuff, which you’re pointing out, and I don’t wanna gloss that over, but I’m trying to kind of paint a landscape that’s more complex that isn’t so siloed, which is what I see happening all over
[00:56:03] Eve Lorgen: the place.
[00:56:04] Eve Lorgen: Like the he gillion dialectic that they always get. There’s always like a, a polarization to try to make it simple and, you know, it’s either this or that. And I, I kind understand that, but one of the things that. Was a problem with people that had come to me or in the early days, , let’s say people who were in these super soldier projects like the Montauk Boys and even some of the earlier, , secret space project, they called it special unacknowledged access projects or whatever, right?
[00:56:33] Eve Lorgen: But many of them had trauma and gosh, so much trauma and programming, but, uh, different beings having interacted with them as well as human military and these secret projects. And then when they discovered what was going on with them, they would search the ends of the earth, you know, going to Nepal and Tibet and going to different yogis and gurus and, and, you know, begging for help and asking for help and trying to do exorcisms.
[00:56:59] Eve Lorgen: And it’s like nobody could help ’em. They’re like, sorry, go sit your karma. And, and they were really, a lot of people were, they were shunned and not understood. And it, and it made me wonder, like, wait a minute here. If there’s these people claiming that they’re frigging gurus and they know all about enlightenment and they can’t help one of these people, one of these projects, they don’t, their religions is missing something.
[00:57:24] Eve Lorgen: And this is what made me question, there’s some kind of intelligence or a force, that’s what I call it, enabling the predator parasite programming within religions and certain spiritual narratives and traditions that are missing something really, really important. And, and I know. One of the simple things they’re missing is, , they’re bypassing the, the real importance of recovering from complex trauma, even from just a simple psychological level.
[00:57:54] Eve Lorgen: But somehow they’re not dealing with the attached entity business and they’re not able to truly deal with that effectively, even with their own faith because there’s, something’s been omitted in terms of their thoroughness of understanding of how things work. Well,
[00:58:11] Alex Tsakiris: what about the wholesome scholar stuff you’re familiar with?
[00:58:14] Alex Tsakiris: , the yoga tradition and a lot, I mean, doesn’t to me when you say that, it’s like, Evie, that is exactly the practice of the release of the samsara, you know, is that you can create the, the example I always love is I first heard from, , Mickey Singer, the Untethered Soul, which is a super popular book, and a Western guy.
[00:58:35] Alex Tsakiris: But he was like, this is like, to me, is like right out of your practice and working with people is I’m driving down the road and I see this blue Corvette go by and there’s my girlfriend with this guy and they’re just having a good old time and they’re making out all this stuff. And I’m like, you know, boom.
[00:58:55] Alex Tsakiris: I just go off and then later I come to understand that, no, that wasn’t my girlfriend. It just looked like my girlfriend. But every time I see a Blue Co. Boom, my body just goes off and I have this flood of emotions. So from a yogic perspective, they’d say, well, you have a samskara. There is God’s energy that’s flowing through you and you’ve blocked it in a way, and you’ve probably blocked it in a million ways, including stuff that you came in with that you weren’t even responsible for.
[00:59:29] Alex Tsakiris: But they would explain that in a very direct way. And they’d say, here’s how you release those, but get ready cuz you got a million of ’em to release. So it’s a, you know, you’re not gonna get through ’em all, but you are going to, to me that is a direct parallel with exactly what you’re saying. And I, I think it makes a lot of sense, is that complex trauma and then how to release that and that, that is nurturing our inner true spirituality and connection with the source.
[00:59:58] Alex Tsakiris: So I’m totally down with that part of it. , what do you see as lacking from and and couldn’t we find that in the mystical Christian tradition? In the Buddhist tradition? In the, okay, go ahead. I’m sorry.
[01:00:10] Eve Lorgen: Well, yeah, I mean, I believe that there is a, a deeper tradition of those who really, I don’t know, you can call it people who really have the Holy Spirit or, or they really have a deeper connection because, uh, their perception opens up so that they’re not blinded by their own preconceived notions or dogmatic ways of perceiving.
[01:00:34] Eve Lorgen: It’s like, You know, well, the das would call it spontaneous wisdom, and the Christians would call it the Holy Spirit. And it, the Holy Spirit’s usually imbued with love and, and mercy. But it could also give you spontaneous wisdom of the direct perception of what’s going on with this person and, and knowing what it just shows you what’s going on.
[01:00:54] Eve Lorgen: And I think the same thing happens with people who are really connected, and then it gives them insight into how to proceed, uh, in life and how to maybe help people if they’re open. But that, that’s not always easy. Like one of the difficulties that I’ve run across with many people, um, they have, once they uncovered, let’s say, the dark underbelly of what, you know, secret societies are the ones controlling let, let’s say the dark side of the earth.
[01:01:23] Eve Lorgen: If they wanna keep it secret and they don’t want you to know the whole thing, and then you bring up too much attention or influence on a certain aspect of the ufology, for example, then you become a targeted individual. And so what happens with targeted individuals, sometimes it’s technology, sometimes it’s, um, direct.
[01:01:40] Eve Lorgen: You can relate it to human, you know, Them doing stuff to your bank account or they’re gang stalking you. And there’s a whole, there’s a whole thing with that. But there is a technology that’s related to very advanced technologies that it could actually explain a lot of, some of the alien and MyLab stuff that people think are coming from aliens so that there are technologies that could affect you on very deep and even spiritual levels now that’s being employed to try to prevent people from bringing to light, um, truth or, you know, different aspects so that people could wake up to, um, to actually have solutions to what the problems are so that there are forces that are trying to prevent people.
[01:02:24] Eve Lorgen: But then that’s what I run across as like people who are, who are actually being targeted and they’re trying to get out from under it and working through all these psychological ways of doing it. But, but it ain’t working because maybe there’s, so there’s something else that we don’t know, uh, but we’re finding out more all the time and, uh, and I think that’s good.
[01:02:43] Eve Lorgen: So
[01:02:44] Alex Tsakiris: yeah. And it’s super important work and you’re bringing a lot forward that we definitely need to get out there and sort through and process. And I know I’ve kind of pushed back in a lot of ways, but I also wanna, at the same time, as I said in the beginning, Kind of connect this with the normie world in a way that helps us see how completely ridiculous that is at the same time, because, you know, we, we have disclosure now, which is like an unbelievable, well, it’s a fake, it’s a fake disclosure.
[01:03:21] Alex Tsakiris: It’s a very limited hangout disclosure. But I mean, who, you’ve been at this for long enough, and I have too, not to the extent that you have, but who would’ve ever thought that the New York Times would run the story and say, here they are. Here’s the video. And you know, that the senate, the, that Congress would say, Hey, we have to start looking at this because we do have these, there is an orchestrated manipulative, but there is a kind of disclosure that makes it undeniable.
[01:03:53] Alex Tsakiris: And yet, at the same time, when we look at the people who are, are public intellectuals, and you know, I love Lex Friedman and I listen to his show, but he talks about this like, there is no disclosure. And he has Avi Lo from Harvard on, and he talks about anomalous things, but they pretend like they haven’t seen the Tic-Tac videos.
[01:04:14] Alex Tsakiris: It’s like, what are we trying to do? What is going on here? For a lot of us, we’re kind of like, you know what, what, what game is being played? The other thing I would connect it to, and I I, I wanna get into this as well with you. The MK Ultra stuff is super important to this, and it’s been outed. I mean, I, I sent you the link to Annie Jacobson’s book.
[01:04:38] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, Annie Jacobson has 10 million views with Rogan. She pulls up way short, uh, with her book. Um, it’s a limited hangout kind of thing, but give her credit. It is the most thorough, uh, explanation of the whole NK Ultra project, starting with, uh, JE and, uh, his talking to the nine and the council, and you get all the, all the ET stuff is in there as well.
[01:05:06] Alex Tsakiris: And the, but then she brings it up to date with, in terms of the mind control stuff. It’s well freaking documented. So anyone who’s coming at this from a normy perspective and calling in to question anything that you just said needs to go read that fricking book because it’s all right there and foia, it’s like, hell, yes.
[01:05:25] Alex Tsakiris: We were doing that. We’re doing every kind of mind control imaginable. And it wasn’t just giving people L s D, it was Urian candidate, but it was also demonic. Let’s bring in the demonic guy. Let’s see what we can do. Let’s do dissociative identity disorder, uh, by, uh, on demand. You know, I interviewed, uh, Whitley Streiber a couple times.
[01:05:46] Alex Tsakiris: That is his experience, you know, being. Recruited into an Air Force program for gifted children cuz his dead and going in there and seeing the kids in Faraday cages and they’re cutting rabbits heads off and saying, if you ever say any of this, and they’re kind of traumatizing me doing this, this shit is all over the place.
[01:06:06] Alex Tsakiris: In terms of documenting, that’s,
[01:06:08] Eve Lorgen: yeah, that’s the MyLab thing where, I mean, it’s, it’s trauma-based, mind control taken to all these other levels of interacting in and out of time and, and, and is they really are doing these things, which is the reason why we need to understand how trauma affects the brain and how to restore our, our balance and then actually have more abilities than we would have if we hadn’t had that.
[01:06:32] Eve Lorgen: Actually, they’re, what they’re doing, I know it sounds nuts, but they’re, they’re activating what they call the meta gene, and I guess that’s just a term whether or not it’s real, but they’ll traumatize a lot of people sometimes killing them. Because they, they work with many, right? I mean, these are the black projects they’d never want you to know about.
[01:06:50] Eve Lorgen: And then they try to get some to activate, like an ability to do things like supernatural abilities, like the X-Men kind of thing, like by locating or, you know, popping in and out of time or doing whatever. And then certain people can do these things when they’re pushed to certain traumas of dissociation and then they have these abilities pop out, but they can only do it during certain triggers.
[01:07:11] Eve Lorgen: So the whole idea with a lot of these Montauk boys and these people who realized they were in these secret space programs is to recover and integrate their traumas, release the demonic and the, all the icky mind control triggers and restore their true and natural real abilities that they have. And then start using it for the good and start helping others.
[01:07:32] Eve Lorgen: And that’s what they’re trying to do.
[01:07:35] Alex Tsakiris: Well, what, what do you mean in that last part? That’s what, who is trying to do? Who, who’s,
[01:07:43] Eve Lorgen: this has been going on for a long time actually. Well,
[01:07:47] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, has it been going on for 788,000 years? I think it has. I interviewed Bruce Fenton and he shows kind of a genetic record and, uh, so shows techno signatures or, you know, look at the same thing with the MK Ultra Project.
[01:08:02] Alex Tsakiris: Part of it is the whole Stargate thing and the remote viewing thing. And if you look at those guys when they re remote view Mars, they see people over there. I don’t know if they’re US or if they’re non-human intelligences from, uh, extraterrestrials, but this is a million years ago, right? And if you go look at Dr.
[01:08:22] Alex Tsakiris: Uh, John Brandenburg and, uh, it’s the nuclear bomb trace elements in the isotopes from Mars. He’s a astrophysicist, he’s solid guy. You know, he is very published peer-reviewed papers on that. I, I, I think the time, the other thing that kind of irks me a little bit is when we kind of con wanna compress the timeframe down.
[01:08:45] Alex Tsakiris: Say, what about Roswell? That’s when this started. No. What if it started a million years ago? What if it started 750,000 years ago with ongoing genetic manipulation the whole way? Isn’t that how, why would, why wouldn’t it be that way? So when I hear, you know, Corey Goode, who now has outed himself as you know, not.
[01:09:08] Alex Tsakiris: Telling the truth in his deposition or whatever, or any of this other recent stuff, I have a hard time kind of really focusing on that as like, okay, this is it. You know, buckle up. It’s all happening right now. I mean, what do you think?
[01:09:23] Eve Lorgen: Well, I know that these projects are happening and many people don’t go public and they prefer not to, so I don’t, I know that there’s something going on, and there has been for a long time though.
[01:09:36] Eve Lorgen: I mean, we’re just in our current era of technology and culture that’s just taken it to the degree that it’s going. But I think this has been going on for thousands of years through ancient, uh, family lines and cults and that kind of thing. Um, from ancient Egypt and who knows, maybe Atlantis and some of these other Lemuria.
[01:09:57] Eve Lorgen: I think these things have been going on for a long time with the same kinds of beings that they’re connecting with to work through certain human groups and doing the same kinds of things. Maybe they weren’t as technologically the same, but then again, maybe they were, maybe they were even more so, so.
[01:10:13] Alex Tsakiris: Well, that’s why, you know, the question for me for a while has been, and I really pushed Mary on this, and I love, she gave me a, a really concise answer too, but my kind of cheeky question is, does et have an n D e, does et have a life review? And so I had to ask her that a few times. She. Well, well, yeah. She goes, I remember doing a regression with a gentleman who went to a past life where he was, uh, et he was from another planet and he reme, he remembered just kind of decimating this culture, which was just kind of a, a primitive culture.
[01:10:56] Alex Tsakiris: And he went in and they just, you know, kind of wiped it out and did all the stuff that we know from our historical past, you know, has happened both by us, but also seems to have been reported in their lore as happening from other entities that came in and did this. And he’s identifying with this, and he’s having a very hard time dealing with this cuz it wasn’t a conscious memory he had, but it came up under, um, regression.
[01:11:22] Alex Tsakiris: And as you know, people want a poo poo regression, but when you really push on the evidence for regression, it’s highly, highly, uh, significantly verifiable. I mean, people can bring recover memories, not in all cases, it can be, you know, misused, but it can be a real tool for memory. But anyways, the, the point back to that is she says, yes, ET does have an n D e.
[01:11:52] Alex Tsakiris: To me, that is my only way I can understand the hierarchy of consciousness. Is that because , the central, most salient point of the near death experience is more than anything else, is one, it’s about love. It’s about connection, and, and people don’t go fishing for that if you just go and look at the accounts.
[01:12:12] Alex Tsakiris: That’s what they say. Overwhelmingly over 90%. But the other thing is that you will be judged. You will be judged. There is a right and wrong, there is a moral imperative. And you will be judged, but you will be the judge. Your soul will be the judge of your actions, your deeds. That’s what comes through from the near death experience science.
[01:12:35] Alex Tsakiris: So that’s why to me, the, the most relevant question is, is ET Going through that same cycle, I believe, from what I’ve seen, is that I suspect that ET is ET is in the school of life, whatever that is broader than just down on this planet. And to me, that makes the whole thing seem a lot different than to think it’s some kind of war against good and bad.
01:13:02] Alex Tsakiris: But good doesn’t really have an upper hand. We don’t know who’s gonna come out the, the near death experience. Science kind of tells us something different, kind of tells us, Hey man, the light is a billion times more powerful, more meaningful than the dark. But you’re gonna play out this little. Drama down here.
[01:13:21] Alex Tsakiris: That’s okay. It’s part of the school. It’s part of the thing. But you’re all gonna be advancing based on what you’re able to do down here. So I, I’ll laid a ton on the table there. What, what are some of your thoughts?
[01:13:34] Eve Lorgen: Well, I mean, who could, I mean, when people have these experiences, I can’t question them. I think love is really important and maybe having a perspective of how we affect others in our different existences is important.
[01:13:50] Eve Lorgen: But one of the things that, uh, Dr. Carrado Malanga brought to light in his research was that, , the beings that he called, the beings that were the more malevolent ets, I guess, , he claimed that they did not have the eternal spirit or anima that we had, and that they, they could exist in time and space, but they were temporal.
[01:14:13] Eve Lorgen: So they would have to kind of borrow and attach onto us and use our eternal spirit to live through us in whatever capacity they wanted. So they’re kind of like piggy backers. So part of the, , recovery process to prevent them from interfering was to release them. And they, they had to stay back in the temporal realm while we connected with our eternal spirit and then worked with our eternal spirit to get rid of that, which is truly not us.
[01:14:40] Eve Lorgen: So if it was an attached thing that really is. Us or originally us then, then it would go back to its origin and not bother us anymore. So part of his theory, and this is what I believe with respect to those that are, , what I call the narcissists who create chaos and drama and feed on negative or a lot of emotion, , they’re obviously doing something to feed on.
[01:15:05] Eve Lorgen: And we see that a lot with certain entities that they attach and they feed on negative or positive emotions and that, or they create a lot of chaos. So they, they tend to, why do they have to do that? What are they not connected to that they have to feed on someone else? And I don’t think predation is normal.
[01:15:24] Eve Lorgen: I don’t think predation is a normal state of being, but in this realm it is. But I think that where we come from eternally, predation and parasitism is not even like a thing. I think it’s something here because there’s beings who need something that we have and they’re just gonna take it. And that’s just what they’re doing.
[01:15:46] Eve Lorgen: And that’s how I see a lot of it. The ones that have a malevolent, uh, effect and that they, they, they draw up all this energy and drama and chaos and then when you release ’em, it’s like, ah, then you feel peace that you’re like, it’s just not an issue anymore. So, I have to ask that question. And that comes to me.
[01:16:04] Eve Lorgen: The good and evil is like, evil would be something that wants to create a lot of misery and chaos and feed on that negative energy and actually have a malicious intent, or not care at all about how they affect you. That, to me is, is evil or just so ignorant or like a machine or something. I don’t know.
[01:16:23] Eve Lorgen: So I don’t know. , but I think the ones that are good, that they would be eternal also, and they’re just going through a, an existence and an experience and learning from it like we are.
[01:16:33] Alex Tsakiris: Well, I, I was with you there and then you kind of threw me at the end. So w where, how are you understanding these extended realms as it relates to, you know, cuz in this conversation we’ve kind of, and, and I’m not being, , I, I’m not being critical, , because I think we, we we’re, there’s so much, you know, are we, , How are we to understand these extended conscious realms?
[01:16:59] Alex Tsakiris: Is there such a thing as lower realms? What does that even mean? We see that through many, many cultures and they talk about us. How close are we to these lower realms? Are there such a thing as higher realms? Are there some higher realms that are closer to us than other realms? What would that even mean then if we start talking about , different phenomenon that we talk about experience, you know, autobody travel, where are we going?
[01:17:26] Alex Tsakiris: , the dream yoga, when says go to those realms, here they are. Here’s the directions, here’s the roadmap. Where are they et where is et what, you know? So I think we gotta pin this down a little bit more and I’m interested in what your read of it is
[01:17:44] Eve Lorgen: well, I think, I don’t know, I just think there’s good ones and, and bad ones. And the, and the bad ones are like narcissistic and parasites and predators or like machines and they, they’re amoral. Or like amor, they don’t like, they don’t care. They’re just doing a job. And it’s like their program and a lot of ’em kind of act like it’s just a program, you know, they’re just doing what they’re doing cuz they have to do it and it’s their job.
[01:18:08] Eve Lorgen: They don’t really care how it affects you. But I, my sense is that if somebody really has an immortal, eternal spirit and they’re living an experience, they’re eventually going to, to learn and, and not have to be predators. And parasites. So when, when someone, when someone does recover their trauma like a human, we really go through recovery and, and you connect with your spirit and you like release the grief and, and you, the, the joy and the compassion of your natural spirit comes back in a sense of peace and goodness and harmony comes back.
[01:18:41] Eve Lorgen: And so that’s a restoration of your original nature without the trauma.
[01:18:47] Alex Tsakiris: Evie, we have met the enemy and it is us. We have met the Nazis. It is us. , the, the pictures that Abu grave are still burned in all our memories of, you know, let’s do enhanced interrogation of people. This is great.
[01:19:02] Alex Tsakiris: Let’s get do all sorts of weird sexual stuff. Let’s abuse people. This is our government. Everything we’ve done, this is the, the history I always put on to slavery. You know, let’s have enslaved these people, , rape these kids. Let’s go to church and come home and go, oh, it’s okay. And then, How, how are we not in absolutely in the middle of this?
[01:19:25] Alex Tsakiris: And at the same time we identify with, I want you on that wall. I need you on that wall cuz I don’t want the Chinese marching in here and telling me that, you know, I I, whatever illusion I have of, uh, self-determination and free will is out the window and it should all be for the state either. So there, there’s a lot of complexity here that kind of gets swept under the rug with some of this stuff.
[01:19:50] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, yeah.
[01:19:53] Eve Lorgen: I, I just, well, the, I see where it’s swept under the rug and, um, and I, I see problems with, um, like feeding the predator parasite programming the enablers. And so why are they not seeing that they’re enabling the predators? Why are they not aware of this? It’s sometimes, it’s, it’s a perplexing question.
[01:20:13] Eve Lorgen: Like, well how come you can’t see this? How come you can’t see the harm you’re doing when you’re doing that? Like, why are people blind Sometimes you have to ask the question,
[01:20:26] Alex Tsakiris: do you know the, the Michael Aquino story? Do you know who Michael Aquino is? Yeah. Colonel Michael Aquino. He’s dead now.
[01:20:33] Alex Tsakiris: He’s dead now. I mean, he was a satanist Yeah. Pedophile. I mean, at least that’s what the government concluded when they finally let ’em go. But they weren’t able inside the, our judicial system or the military. Judicial system to ever convict him or anything. So that is who we are. You know, that, that is us, that is our democracy, is Satanist Colonel Michael Aquino, who’s a pedophile and is respected among his super soldier peers in the military.
[01:21:08] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, I, I, I don’t, I don’t know how we get out of that without going spiritual in a way that is, transcends all this, oh, we’re the center of the story and it’s all about us. And it, it can’t be all about us. It has to be bigger than that.
[01:21:27] Eve Lorgen: Well, there are malevolent groups that control and, , through trickery and mind control and spiritual deception to prevent us from perceiving the whole thing.
[01:21:39] Eve Lorgen: And then when you do, , you’re alone for a while and get targeted. Sometimes they kill you, but then sometimes other people kind of wake up too. And I just think it reminds me of that a Rand movie, , Atlas Shrugged and I don’t know why, but that movie stuck with. In the end where I guess it was John Gat had a statement that, you know, what he discovered all along that, you know, don’t ever allow them to steal the fire of your spirit, which is, you know, the spirit of invention, uh, individuality to, to get ahead to stripe for excellence and not allow the program, it’s like the communist program, uh, to basically feed the predator in the parasite and then let everything else go to shit.
[01:22:24] Eve Lorgen: Because well, we’re just gonna let allow them to, to do and be what they do and we’ll feel sorry for ’em and not see what’s really happening with the overall evil of this whole scheme. So let’s just escape and create another world and just like, sorry, we’re, we’re going elsewhere. So sometimes I wonder if, if that’s what some groups have done or some secret yogis who have all these like, phenomenal abilities or go hiding out, they’re like, they’re off the radar.
[01:22:53] Eve Lorgen: They don’t wanna go and argue and be on the disclosure panel and, and play that game for freaking 30 years and find out where that goes. You know what I mean?
[01:23:01] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, well, I do know what you mean. But isn’t that part of the personal development and education process too? I mean, because that goes, that’s another part of the recovery process, isn’t it?
[01:23:13] Alex Tsakiris: When you say complex trauma is, how do I deal with these, these people who all over the board as you? Folks, you, you will get a lot out of these books if you read them. They’re challenging. The material will seriously, fundamentally, , rattle your paradigm. But we all need that and on a regular basis.
[01:23:37] Eve Lorgen: Well, we need to tell the truth though. I think like, part of the process is we can’t like run away and just like, okay, I’m done with this place. There ain’t gonna listen. Right? Um, so I’m just like leaving and you create another world or shambala or something.
[01:23:49] Eve Lorgen: But I think part of our process, even people who’ve gone through like 12 step programs or recovery or, you know, witnessing, doing their testimony and witness for Jesus, whatever it is, there’s, there comes a point where you need to, we need to tell the truth and express ourselves for what our truth is and find meaning and belonging in that process.
[01:24:11] Eve Lorgen: We, we heal as a result of being able to tell the truth as we understand it, as we’re learning the whole way. And I think we al we always need a connection with another human being or more to express our truth safely. And I think that’s a real important part of recovery when we can create that safety to express whatever that experience is without, you know, feeling we’re gonna be, you know, ridiculed or killed
[01:24:37] Alex Tsakiris: . And that, that’s an awesome point. And let’s talk a little bit about the flip side of that too, which is the, the after effects proselytizing kind of stuff, because this is a real issue, I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but in the near death experience research, right. So again, what I love about the near death experience research is there’s a scientific angle of it where we say, okay, physiologically, this defies explanation.
[01:25:04] Alex Tsakiris: Our neurological models are out the window now, but now let’s go look at the accounts. And then like we talked about, if you go look cross culture and you go look in India and you say, oh my God, these people are having this basically Samati experience, they’re kind of waking up and they’re all about God and love and some fantastic things are happening, including some paranormal psychic things, but they’re also filled with the Holy Spirit or whatever.
[01:25:31] Alex Tsakiris: And the people in India will go, okay, yeah, what we need to do is kind of take care of ’em over here, put ’em, you know, go feed ’em, you know, keep pat ’em on the head and six months later it’ll kind of settle down and they’ll kind of come back and can rejoin society. This is like the traditional kind of Indian thing.
[01:25:49] Alex Tsakiris: Well, the near death experience, , because there’s a technological component of that, which we’ll talk about in terms of MK Ultra cuz it’s so important. But it, with near death experience, it’s resuscitation. We are now resuscitating people, bringing ’em back from the dead in greater numbers. What does that mean in terms of people having these experiences?
[01:26:09] Alex Tsakiris: But people have these experience and they do higher divorce rates and kind of depression and suicidal ideation and all this other stuff is higher, much higher than normal because it is this spiritually transformative experience and that rattles people’s lives. So you are, I’m sure, all over this in your work, but speak to that for a minute in terms of feeling your truth, embodying your truth, but at the same time finding a way to integrate into, you know, , our social structure in a way that isn’t gonna totally scrub your life.
[01:26:51] Eve Lorgen: Totally. That’s the big. I mean, that’s the hard part. Like if, if you’ve had a profound experience where you, let’s say, realize something that’s out of the norm of the bell curve of the population for what they believe is reality, it makes you feel alone and isolated for a time unless you could basically find your own kind or your own tribe and get the social relational support to, to be with at least some mutual understanding.
[01:27:21] Eve Lorgen: And that that’s a big, a big thing that makes people depressed when they find out. Uh, I think like the narc abuse recovery for example, is a big, , it’s a good parallel to use and it’s something that, um, a therapist named Ross Rosenberg does with his a 12 step recovery from self-love def deficit disorder.
[01:27:41] Eve Lorgen: But basically, People found out who were co-dependents, who were like married or had partners that were like narcissistic personality disorder. You know, like it’s the worst kind of relationship you can have. But, but it’s like a magnet syndrome of unresolved complex trauma on both ends. That’s like two sides of the same coin.
[01:27:58] Eve Lorgen: So once you, let’s say it’s the co-dependent end that tends to get into recovery because they’re the ones that hurt the most. And the other, the other ones really don’t get well, which is actually a worse curse when you think about it. But once you start getting well and you start realizing the truth and quit gaslighting yourself and quit doubting yourself and recover your identity and, you know, release the grief, , then there’s like a stage of like kind of being suspended in a no man’s land of like losing 75 to 80% of your friends and then like trying to find, start dating again when you’re just really afraid you’re gonna attract another one of those.
[01:28:34] Eve Lorgen: And, and just having to, to start all over again from knowing that you’re gonna lose a lot of family connections and friend connections and maybe even jobs. And that’s, that’s the, the part where you really have to get through that and start building connections with your own kind that have that level of understanding and then start building from that place.
[01:28:57] Eve Lorgen: But the isolation. Is really hard. But when you, you know, top it off with like, , my Labi people for example, or people who’ve been through love bites, it’s not only the isolation that you can have from the standard psychological thing, but sometimes, you know, they try to kill you. They do murder your mentors.
[01:29:14] Eve Lorgen: They, they make you sick, they poison you, they give you cancer. They financially, they, you get targeted. You turn into a targeted individual and this is the real test. This is like, okay, you have to be a super yogi, enlightened being to start dealing with this shit now because this is the place we’re gonna have to be, to really overcome all these things so that we can go to the next level.
[01:29:37] Eve Lorgen: So that when humanity really starts waking up and realizing what’s been kind of running the show and keeping them dummy down, um, they’re gonna be really pissed. They’re gonna be going through a lot of trauma and they may not come out of it unless they have somebody there for them. I, I mean, I’m a, I think most people can’t handle the truth to be honest.
[01:29:59] Eve Lorgen: I mean, if they really knew, like the, the, like the deep, deep stuff, like the secret space program and the real entities and like the real, the real weird WOOWOO stuff, most people just could not handle it. So,
[01:30:12] Alex Tsakiris: so if that is a, a bridge too far for a lot of people, yeah, I think we need to connect it to what we already know is kind of happening like with, uh, targeting.
[01:30:27] Alex Tsakiris: We already have documented proof that they’re targeting people in all sorts of ways. But in, in, in particular, in the, you know, the, the, I I guess I’d wanna break that down from kind of the kindergarten level of the MyLab stuff. And we kind of touched on it with Whitley streamer. But the other way to to, to approach it is to say, well, why wouldn’t the military industrial complex, the alphabet soup agencies, as everybody say, why wouldn’t they want to know what is going on with, uh, people who have had these contacts or even alleged contacts?
[01:31:08] Alex Tsakiris: So what you would wanna do is you would wanna get these people and you’d wanna talk to them, and you would wanna talk to them in a way that doesn’t reveal that you what, you know, and we actually have evidence of this. I mean, uh, Richard Doty was outed for doing this with Paul Benowitz. It’s out. They wrote the book, remember that they did the movie and the only thing they did is they, they did it before disclosure.
[01:31:33] Alex Tsakiris: So they hit it as, oh, he must have seen a stealth bomber. Well, no, he didn’t see a stealth bomber. We all know now that disclosure, we know that he saw what he saw. So I, if that is a bridge too far, kind of walk it back a little bit and how, how would you get a normie to understand this idea of. Targeting and this idea of you being someone who, , they could have a special interest in and could cause havoc and interfere with someone’s life.
[01:32:08] Eve Lorgen: I mean, well, I mean, gosh, I don’t know if it helps to, to like whine about it all the time. , once you know, you’re, you’re a targeted individual, , it doesn’t help like socially to like tell people that, like, it’s better just to not say anything and try to connect on, on like, normal levels of like walking your dog and going to the park and gardening together and cooking together and just reducing your life to actually simplicity of connecting on like real natural easy levels and just working on increasing your, your love for one another and for people to treat each other with kindness and just focus on that so that if you can build that quality, that can overcome the, the malevolent effects of some of the targeting.
[01:32:56] Eve Lorgen: , and this is what, , some people that I know who could perceive things in different ways. It’s as if there’s a technology that’s overlaying humanity. We can call it like the, the softest, uh, Rudolph Steiner people called it the , which is a almost like a machine-like contractual. Malevolent controlling evil machine-like amoral force that can move in and around and create chaos and as if it, you, you know, it has a program, so it’s like it’s automated.
[01:33:26] Eve Lorgen: Once they have your frequency, you’re on this automated program for shit to happen. But it happens in clusters and waves, and it operates almost like a, like a machine. So if you could figure out how to bring light into that, into your consciousness and the people you’re with, to just basically create cracks of light and awareness to break up those clouds, those psychic clouds, then you won’t be as influenced by those when you’re, when you’re in one of those clouds, uh, when, when they’re targeting you, because it’s like, it’s almost like a, we call ’em like dark astral blobs where it’s like, oh no, I, I feel another one coming.
[01:34:05] Eve Lorgen: You know, and then, then for the next few hours you’re like, oh my God, I just threw me one, you know? And, and then trying to bring light to it so that you don’t react and you, you pull in light and then all of a sudden things just shift and change. So it’s like you have to change your patterns and habits of thinking and believing, and regardless of that wave that happened through whoever it happened through, not to blame them because they’re just being part of it.
[01:34:30] Eve Lorgen: It’s like, don’t know to blame ’em, you know? Well, sometimes it is just because they’re, they’re. They’re part of it. They’re, it’s their consciousness. It’s, it’s hard to explain, but I think our own light and our own awareness and our own intentions, , could create cracks in that so that we actually start creating our reality and we start dreaming differently.
[01:34:51] Eve Lorgen: And they can’t. They can’t. It’s like they’re infecting our dreaming reality process with stupid ass shit programs that we don’t want that’s coming in through different, uh, perceptual windows, but they’re able to do it more easily. And, and if we could manage to pull those out and not have those enter into our re reality creation mechanism and our dreaming, then we can smooth more clearly in and around all this stuff.
[01:35:16] Eve Lorgen: And just basically, nobody even knows who you are. They don’t have to know who you, you just,
[01:35:23] Alex Tsakiris: just do it. Wonderful, wonderful. We, we keep coming back. I keep coming at it from an evidential scientific kind of prove it kind of thing. Cuz I think that’s an important truth for people to get. And then you keep flipping it to the therapeutic model, which is No, no, don’t, don’t apologize.
[01:35:41] Alex Tsakiris: No, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s beautiful. And I, I hope that in this kind of herky jerky conversation, people can understand that if you’re at a place where what Evie’s saying resonates at all in terms of anomalous trauma. We haven’t even talked about the relationship stuff, but I guess we’ve touched on it, if that resonates at all in.
[01:36:04] Alex Tsakiris: You know, my relationship seems to have anomalous trauma associated with it, whether it’s, you know, not demonic or benevolent or I was part of a, I was part of a a, a Wicca group or, you know, I was practicing satanism or Black Magic. And next thing you know, I’ve, I’ve talked to people like this, you know, you’ll talk to ’em and they’ll say they have these things going, going on.
[01:36:29] Alex Tsakiris: And then you go, well, how, you know, well, I guess we did do these kind of, uh, occult practices, you know, that’s like, oh really? Do you, do you think, uh, anyways, I don’t want to go too farfield. If that, it all resonates with you as with, you know, we have it kind of done the full bifurcation with the alien contact Contactee, and is that evil benevolent or is it just somebody doing their job, you know, on sector six planet, whatever, if that resonates at all.
[01:36:59] Alex Tsakiris: I think you get a sense that this person who I’m talking to today has walked this walk and might be able to help you. And that’s what you do. You try and help people, number one with support, right? Both one-on-one support and group support. How, how does that work
[01:37:17] Eve Lorgen: really? It’s, , well, people come to me for sessions.
[01:37:19] Eve Lorgen: I usually work with Zoom or phone. Um, and then it’s really sometimes just to tell me what’s going on with them. Because they need some kind of confirmation or to figure out what, what’s really happening. And then oftentimes I could do a guided hypnotherapy to do deeper work or, or sometimes to, to do a group where we do, um, dream work.
[01:37:39] Eve Lorgen: We start working with dreams as a way of healing and getting greater insights and working with the, the dreaming reality mechanism and really assessing perception on a whole different level. So I work with individuals and groups and mostly zoom though online.
[01:37:56] Alex Tsakiris: , that I guess leads into one of the parts of the book that I really appreciated cuz so few people talk about it as directly as you do, even though you just touch on, that’s a tiny part of the book is the deception element.
[01:38:10] Alex Tsakiris: Mm. And there’s so many parts to that. There is definitely, in my opinion, and I think it’s just very hard to argue this, we are being run through, uh, misinformation disinformation program constantly, and it’s constantly evolving and it’s incredibly sophisticated. And, you know, I’ll just, uh, mention to you like the Lou Elizondo thing.
[01:38:35] Alex Tsakiris: You know, Lou Eli Elizondo, he’s a counterintelligence agent. That’s what it says on his freaking card. And yet he’s on 60 minutes, he’s on the history channel. He’s promoting the narrative on disclosure. And that’s like a small, tiny example from your world. But it’s so clear, and I mentioned some other ones in this thing.
[01:38:57] Alex Tsakiris: So you talk about that kind of deception, that kind of programming that’s being thrown at us all the time to kind of knock us off kilter and to make it harder for us to integrate with other people when we say, Hey, you know, this is true. And they go, oh no, didn’t you hear I just read this? Then there is also, and I want you to talk about this too, there is the self deception.
[01:39:19] Alex Tsakiris: Now, I don’t know how you deal with that because you’re a people helper and somebody comes for you therapeutically. They don’t need you saying, You know, you’re probably kind of diluting yourself a little bit here, but that is in play too. So how do you deal with those two aspects of deception? And then how do we find discernment through all
[01:39:42] Eve Lorgen: that?
[01:39:43] Eve Lorgen: I mean, um, well, for me, direct realization of your eternal nature is always the best, uh, gold standard, you know, to launch from. But sometimes we don’t have that. And I found that discernment is directly related to or say inversely proportional to the amount of trauma you’ve had. So the more trauma we’ve had, that means the more self disconnection we have from our eternal nature and our heart.
[01:40:10] Eve Lorgen: Cuz you know, we don’t wanna remember all those icky feelings and memories, so we have to like stay in the head and live in the, um, illusion. So that takes away your discernment. So we always have to reconnect to create discernment, but I think there’s a level of, hmm, ethics where you really have to have a pure heart of goodness to, , allow truth to come through.
[01:40:35] Eve Lorgen: , because if you really don’t have a good intention and you really wanna hide your stuff and not feel and know the truth, then you’ll be easily deceived. , and spiritual manipulation is, is some of the worst. And, and I’ve seen this, this is why I know it’s true. And I’m, I’m, I’m basically a Christian because of, of what I’ve.
[01:40:56] Eve Lorgen: But let’s say the high level deceivers, you’re talking about high level spiritual beings who could masquerade as wonderful ascended masters, and they could do these twin flame things. They could activate your kundalini, they can give you accurate information, they can give you psychic information to lead you on a certain way, and then they will confirm with their bonafides that everything’s gonna go fine as long as you follow their way and, and you really believe that it’s true and have this kind of spiritual arrogance.
[01:41:24] Eve Lorgen: But once you challenge it, because they actually led someone astray. And I learned this from people who went to psychics and tarots or even eat Ching or this or that, and they led them to the, to the frigging love by that was like hosted by a demonn and told ’em it was their twin flame and it led ’em into this like horrible relationship that was, well who is this hierarchy?
[01:41:47] Eve Lorgen: Giving ’em psychic information when they’re leading ’em down that road?
[01:41:51] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. Okay. Lemme jump in because I, I, I’ve kind of sidestep the whole love bite thing and it’s central to what you do and let’s just tackle it here. Two hours in or hour half into this. But the, the, the reason I think it, it really resonates and it’s awesome.
[01:42:07] Alex Tsakiris: So awesome. And I know it seems like I’m pushing on you really hard, but I think your work is so important and that’s why I guess I’m pushing to kind of tidy up some of what I see is kind of the loose ends there. Why would. Either the why would an entity that was trying to manipulate control in all these ways we’re talking about, why would they focus on relationships?
[01:42:33] Alex Tsakiris: Well, that’s the biggest
[01:42:34] Eve Lorgen: lush feed. Um, the sexual energy is life force energy and emotional energy is a big feed. So you get more energy and you feel more a life, um, through relationship emotions and especially sexual energy like tantric sexual kundalini, that’s like the super wow, whatever, right? So a lot of these beings, that’s where they go right for it and they’ll, they’ll activate your kundalini and they’ll make you think that, you know, you met your twin flame or you get set up in certain situations and then you find out later that it, oh my god, you know, that was like a manipulation.
[01:43:09] Eve Lorgen: And then I’m drained and I was, led down a path that I thought was true. And then I found out that this guru is like totally manipulating all these people, but he still has like these magical powers cuz he’s pulling it off other people’s life force. And it’s like, wow, you know, how come I didn’t see this?
[01:43:26] Eve Lorgen: How come all these people didn’t see that? How come my perception was like, what happened? Why didn’t we perceive those spiritual predators? That’s my big question. It’s like, how come we didn’t see those spiritual predators? How come we weren’t warned about ’em? And how come we have narratives and religions that are enabling those Brigham predators continue doing what they’re.
[01:43:50] Alex Tsakiris: Those are all good questions. But the other kind of related answer, if you will, and it comes right out of those questions, is that if you had advanced intelligence, either non-human intelligence on the spiritual realm or non-human intelligence on the ET realm, we don’t even know what those two mean and how they’re different.
[01:44:12] Alex Tsakiris: So we were just kind of playing with wordsmith there, but what I hear you saying is this is where you’d go. I mean, if you were just gonna kind of, if, if you or I were sitting in the role of these benevolent beings and we say, okay, how do we get this done? Where do we go? Do we go money? Oh, let’s go money.
[01:44:31] Alex Tsakiris: And another guy says, oh, no, no, no, let’s go over here. Let’s go, you know, greed or this, and then the guy says, screw all that. Here’s where you go. You go right here, you go sexual, you go relationship, you go emotion. And everyone goes, ah, of course you’re right. That’s where we go, all the rest of the stuff.
[01:44:48] Alex Tsakiris: You know what I mean? That is the, that is the answer is if you were an advanced intelligent intelligence, this is where you would wind up going.
[01:44:57] Eve Lorgen: Yeah. Yeah. They would, they would traumatize people multi-generationally and then give them lies about God or li and they would gaslight you so that when you felt bad about them treating you like shit, , you know, you would, you wouldn’t believe yourself anymore.
[01:45:11] Eve Lorgen: You would say, oh, it must be me.
[01:45:14] Alex Tsakiris: Particularly with this relationship thing. Yeah. On a kind of, on a sub-project level. Like if you look at MK Ultra, they have all these projects and sub-projects. I mean, a major sub-project would be exactly the kind of stuff you’re talking about in the book. Let’s kind of pit these two people against each other in a sexual relationship.
[01:45:34] Alex Tsakiris: Let’s get these people involved. Let’s, you would, you would just absolutely do that. It would, why? It’d be so powerful.
[01:45:42] Eve Lorgen: Yeah. They keep people at each other with chaos in the relationships and unresolved trauma so that people hurt one another and fight one another when really there’s somebody else pulling the strings and feeding off of all of that.
[01:45:57] Eve Lorgen: And so that’s why, you know, go back to simplistic. If we can go back to simplistic teachings of, you know, honoring and loving one another. As much as we can so that, um, their power to cause us to get in fights and to hurt one another is not as powerful. And so that when they really target you, uh, when someone’s hungry or when someone, you know, lost a place to live, someone lovingly will take ’em in and help ’em find a job instead of living, they’re out on the streets to, to just fend for themselves.
[01:46:27] Eve Lorgen: It’s, it, we really have to love each other more. I know it’s hard. It’s, it’s, it’s, I just feel like this has been going on for a very, very long time because the, the poverty of, you know, like women and children and human trafficking and the abuse and the, you know, I know in the patriarchal religions, like it was always the orphans and the widows that the whole of the New Testament people, like the whole of their job was like helping orphans and widows.
[01:46:53] Eve Lorgen: Well, what the hell, what problem is that? Why are there so many orphans and widows in the first place? This is what my question was. Why are they making them believe in the devaluation of women and children to begin with that causes that problem all the time? So they’re spending all their time doing the religion to help the women and the children, but it never gets resolved.
[01:47:15] Alex Tsakiris: Well, well, that’s, that’s because religion is, is and always has been a social engineering project first and foremost. And that’s the problem I have with Christianity. If you go and look at the history and if you read Josephus, the Roman slash Jewish historian, he lays out. Josephus wore the Jews 4.5 0.6.
[01:47:37] Alex Tsakiris: He lays bare the social engineering operation only. It was first to the Jews. You know, it’s like, Hey, Titus is really the Messiah. All, all the Jewish people like me, we should realize that, you know, he’s really at, well, then they just pull the same thing with Jesus on the next thing with, with Constantine and that whole thing.
[01:47:54] Alex Tsakiris: It’s, it’s just, it’s very effective. Why wouldn’t you do that? Why wouldn’t you? If I wanna control a population, do I wanna really go in there with, uh, weapons and arms and March my troops? If I can just say, Hey, it’s, this is it, this is the book. Just follow the book. We’re all under the same thing. If I can control you that way, it’s just the much more efficient way to, to do it.
[01:48:19] Alex Tsakiris: I, I don’t know. To me it isn’t even that difficult to understand. What’s hard to understand is why, but this is the super big spiritual question. Why is God allowing this to play out? You know, why is, and I, I resist the idea that, and I was gonna say this before, I resist the idea that God needs our help in any of this.
[01:48:39] Alex Tsakiris: You know, uh, God needs our help. We gotta, we’re soldiers. It just doesn’t, that just doesn’t square, you know, somehow I’m on some kind of soul journey. I need to find truth. I need to be the embodiment of that truth. I need to grow in all the rest of that, that I get the idea that I need to go strike down some.
[01:49:01] Alex Tsakiris: You know, evil being, you know, it just doesn’t, logically it doesn’t add up to how that could work. And, and I kind of feel like you’re coming from a slightly different place on that.
[01:49:13] Eve Lorgen: Well, I think, well, what, what moved me the most was actually discovery of, , how narcissistic abuse really works and how it’s enabled in our culture and society and, and how to truly recover from that, what we really need to be and do.
[01:49:30] Eve Lorgen: And that, that to me, moved me more even than learning about alien abductions. It was just another form of let’s say narcissistic abuse and mind control and spiritual deception to take our, , resources and, and then gaslight us into thinking it’s like all our fault. There’s something wrong with us. But if we really reconnect with our true essence, , we find ways to get around.
[01:49:51] Eve Lorgen: Like basically with narcissists, you don’t really, , fight them directly. If you tell them what they are, they just, they’re like, what do you call it? Pigs in a pig pen. They’re always better at fighting and, and turning around on you, and they’re just met, they’re just better at you. Doing what they do. So it’s, it’s like gray rocking and you ignore them, you don’t give them your attention.
[01:50:11] Eve Lorgen: You, you just kind of move around it and you basically have to accept your losses. You may not ever be able to recover your losses from their theft, which will never stop as long as you interact with them. So you basically just have to start connecting with people who understand the nature of the predator versus the nature of those who are not predators.
[01:50:33] Eve Lorgen: I mean, I just see it as like the predators, plain and simple, and maybe it’s ignorance, but I’m not there to try to make them better. I’m there to, to learn and get better myself, and they can find their own path because I, I need to recover. I, I’m not gonna take care of ’em and then starve to death. Trying to always take care of all these people who are never gonna change, you know?
[01:50:55] Eve Lorgen: It’s like, yeah.
[01:50:57] Alex Tsakiris: I, I, I hear you. , but this is such a interesting topic to me because we all, , I appreciate that the narcissistic thing is just way overused to the point of where it’s kind of lost its meaning and , it’s become.
[01:51:10] Alex Tsakiris: uh, a gender kind of thing in a way that it really shouldn’t in that, you know, we’re usually talking about men when we talking about mar narcissist and we’re we’re women narcissist too. No, no. I, I get it. But you also get that, you know, that’s when we hear, when I hear a lot of the interviews you do, I mean, that’s what we’re really kind of a lot of times talking about.
[01:51:29] Alex Tsakiris: And it loses the fact that the other parts of our culture that we’re comfortable with are very much about promoting that kind of male energy that borders on narcissism, you know, the get thing done kind of mentality. The protect at all cost mentality. The, I need you on that wall, I want you on that wall.
[01:51:54] Alex Tsakiris: Go take that hill. Doesn’t matter how you do it kind of energy. We are a product of that. We are a product of the most narcissistic people that fought bravely for us to chop that other guy’s head off in a one-on-one battle. You know what I mean? And I think we’re trying to understand that and resolve that.
[01:52:16] Alex Tsakiris: And sometimes I think when we, the way we talk about narcissism doesn’t help. So it’s like labels are problematic in so many ways, but so is the cultural overlay on this. And what I really resonate with much more than the narcissistic thing is the trauma thing that you’re talking about, both anomalous trauma and the kind of non anomalous trauma.
[01:52:41] Alex Tsakiris: And I thought it was very beautiful and eloquent. The way that you said of our ability to kind of be our full self is inversely proportional. The mono trauma we can relieve. To me, that’s the samskara thing. That is the yogic thing that I totally get and understand.
[01:53:01] Alex Tsakiris: I’m not sure that narcissism exactly fits into that other than we all got yet. And some of the shit winds up looking a lot like narcissistic behavior.
[01:53:16] Eve Lorgen: Yeah, but there’s a real personality disorder that, that’s actually more, um, you know, pathological and it comes from complex trauma. So that’s the ones that I’m talking about that like even in my work where when someone became hosted by an entity, it was because of that personality style and the trauma that actually allowed those entities to even exacerbate those behaviors.
[01:53:42] Eve Lorgen: So, Yeah, that’s what I mean. But not, not in the normal male female. No, this is complex trauma that I’m talking
[01:53:50] Alex Tsakiris: about. I, I, I just think that all that gets really blurry and I think the labeling gets really blurry. And then when we say real, you know, from some psychology perspective, like they have any freaking clue, they still don’t believe that consciousness is real.
[01:54:03] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, the official position among psychology is that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain. So all this stuff that we’re talking about, I is a product of the brain. There is nothing real in terms of your conscious experience. They’re not there yet. When we talk about spiritually transformative experiences at the beginning, at the APA conference, there ain’t no breakouts.
[01:54:25] Alex Tsakiris: Those, those breakouts on spiritual transformative experiences are like tiny compared to overall psychology hasn’t come around to the idea that there are these extended consciousness realms. You are, because that’s where you live and that’s where you work. But in general, that’s why you tell people they can’t, the people that come to you, they can’t go to a normal therapist.
[01:54:45] Alex Tsakiris: Right. They go to a normal therapist. So, I mean, that’s why I think it does get kind of siloed a little bit where you kinda see it and you lose sight of the, the, the world that that really exists out there and how it is so detached from what you and I accept as an obvious, obvious reality, which is, of course, there are these other realms.
[01:55:09] Eve Lorgen: Yeah. I, I wish it was easier. But, uh, sometimes you don’t have to talk about experiences. Like I’ve found that, um, we didn’t have to go into the story and the particularities of the story of the weirdness and just talk about feelings and, and feelings and needs from like a really basic human level. And then, then you’re able to do work with a therapist without having to like, give national security secrets or, or get in trouble that you’re, you know, um, talking about shit that they’re just gonna you get in trouble for.
[01:55:41] Eve Lorgen: So there’s ways to get around that because sometimes it is a national security issue, um, and you really can’t talk about it. So, I feel sorry for people who have to work for those, you know, companies and they really can’t talk and, yeah.
[01:55:57] Alex Tsakiris: Well, well folks, if, if any of this, uh, does seem to resonate with you in a way that makes you feel like you need to connect with this very awesome open-hearted person who we’ve been talking to, Eve Logan, then please do contact her.
[01:56:16] Alex Tsakiris: You can find her at her website, eve morgan.com. And, uh, what, where, what else should people know in terms of working with you or reading the books or anything else like that?
[01:56:29] Eve Lorgen: Well, you can get my hard copy books directly through me on my website. And then they’re both, uh, dark side of Cupid and the Love Bites still available on Kindle, so you still can get a Kindle edition there.
[01:56:42] Eve Lorgen: And then I have a small alien Love Bite Telegram group that I’m posting to that I can do a little more quickly than my regular website. So you can always get in, contact me that way or through my email. And that’s probably the best way. Or you know, any interviews you’ve heard me on, I don’t even have my own YouTube channel that I use.
[01:57:00] Eve Lorgen: I just, you know, do other people’s shows and it’s easier for me that way.
[01:57:04] Alex Tsakiris: So. Well, excellent. It’s been terrific. I’m very grateful for you being so open and allowing this conversation to go in ways that I don’t think a lot of people here when they approach your work, we didn’t even touch on really my labs and what all that’s about, but I think people will get the, get the general idea.
[01:57:24] Alex Tsakiris: So thanks so much for
[01:57:25] Eve Lorgen: doing it Eve. Well, thank you. It’s great conversation.
[01:57:29] Alex Tsakiris: Thanks again to Eve Logan for joining me today on Skeptiko do check her out. I think if you have any kind of issues, Surrounding this anomalous trauma issue. Seems to me like, she’d be a great person. Her books are challenging for the ways that I. Outlined in this interview.
[01:57:46] Alex Tsakiris: But other than that, . I don’t know. I think there’s definitely, definitely worth checking out.
[01:57:51] Alex Tsakiris: , so then finally, you know, one question I tee up from this interview and it’s kind of one of these where the. Questions just obvious, you know, Do you buy the MyLab thing?
[01:58:03] Alex Tsakiris: Let me know your thoughts. As always until next time. Take care. And bye for now.